HELLO RELIGIOUS PEOPLE! I have an honest question for you.

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Abe
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HELLO RELIGIOUS PEOPLE! I have an honest question for you.

Post#1 » Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:57 am

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Hello believer,

I understand and respect your religious traditions. I know they are important to you and/or your friends and family. I know you want to be a good person and that religion seems like the right path. I've asked you here because I have a question for you. This is a question you must answer for yourself. It is a question we are all faced with. Inside this question is a choice...

Do you seek the truth,
or are you happy believing what you already believe ?


If you seek the truth, then you are willing to question your own beliefs. You're willing to question everything. Real truth stands up to criticism, and criticism uncovers truth.

If not, then you can go on with your life believing as you already do.

In other words...

Image

If you're still with me, then you might be wondering what this red pill of information I have is. It is in the form of video, and it is the most respectful, clear, and comprehensive analysis of religious fallacies I have ever seen! If you are a truth seeker, if you are willing to put your faith to the test, and if you have 2.5 hours of free time, then go ahead and take the red pill below...



REMEMBER
This could change your life.
Choose carefully.



Image
or
Take the blue pill
and forget this ever happened


.
"Lets burn this mother down!"


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thedatabug
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Re: HELLO RELIGIOUS PEOPLE! I have an honest question for you.

Post#2 » Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:20 am

Well despite our private conversation curiosity got the better of me. I am currently about halfway through these videos and despite some fears, have actually found them very faith strengthening.

It would be way too involved to fully explain why. But so far every one of these kinds webpages, videos etc etc all show a complete lack of correct understanding of Scripture, prayer and everything else. Of course this is only down to our interpretation of these things. Another concept that is obvious in these videos is that this mans faith was based without ANY knowledge of scripture initially or any logical arguments that support the Bible. In fact his faith began to be knocked once he started to read the Bible or to question Logic which showed he had NO initial Logic to base his faith on This is indeed a dangerous standpoint to just blindly accept hearsay without any evidence whatsoever. Also in the examples cited he came to wrong conclusions of the stated passages. In fact his interpretation of faith is scarily twisted to the point of killing in the name of God if he felt God commanded it. That's seriously scary. If this is the understanding that Christians hold to then its no wonder that people believe that Religion is dangerous.
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Shalmainia
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Re: HELLO RELIGIOUS PEOPLE! I have an honest question for you.

Post#3 » Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:20 am

Abe, no offence here but I'm really starting to wonder if it's you who is going through some form of religious/atheist dilemma? Just saying, considering at least for the last year, that's one of the few types of thread you'll enter.

On a side note, can I get a mix of blue and red considering being an eclectic Pagan I actually get to pick exactly what religious beliefs, structures, deities and all that lark.
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three5andeight
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Re: HELLO RELIGIOUS PEOPLE! I have an honest question for you.

Post#4 » Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:25 am

I don't have time to sit and watch vids atm, but I'm actually interested to hear more about you, Shal. You can pm me if you want to tell me about it. That sounds super interesting and I just was wondering what you believe/celebrate/worship and how. I like learning about new things. :)

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Sovereign42
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Re: HELLO RELIGIOUS PEOPLE! I have an honest question for you.

Post#5 » Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:20 pm

Take the reds, man.
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Re: HELLO RELIGIOUS PEOPLE! I have an honest question for you.

Post#6 » Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:31 pm

Shal, the question of the nature of reality is perhaps the most important question in life. To not be concerned with it is to take the blue pill.

DB, I'm glad you decided to watch it. I'll be interested in your comments on the rest of the videos.

358, no worries! We all have our reasons. :)
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thedatabug
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Re: HELLO RELIGIOUS PEOPLE! I have an honest question for you.

Post#7 » Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:00 pm

I have to say that I didnt continue to watch it all. I was mainly concerned with his questioning of faith rather than his conversion to non-faith. Obviously this is a well put together documentary borrowing reasonings and logic from other documentaries that I have also seen. Also from my understanding the guy was a born again Christian and therefore following born again philosophies and faith.

The worrying parts of this film is that this man accepted many things without question seemingly from the beginning. He didnt start looking into the depths of his faith until near to his de-conversion. Many scriptural reasonings he cites show an incorrect understanding of those scriptures (at least in accord with how we understand them). He hadnt really applied logic to the Bible again until just before hi de-conversion. The scary part was when he said that if God where to command him to kill he would. Somehow he seemed to feel this was entirely in keeping with the Bibles message.

Another huge issue that comes up time and again is that of prayer. I always said I would explain how prayer works according to our understanding so this is the perfect time for it. A prayer is not an Abracadabra spell. You dont ask for stuff and automatically get it. Jesus outlined how you should pray during his sermon on the mount. However he had already said that just repeating words would not make your prayer heard. So his example prayer was not just to be repeated by wrote like a chant it was to serve as a template.

The first few things that example prayer lists are things to do with Gods will taking place. "Hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come thy will be done". 3 things there all asking for the divine will to take place. No mention there of winning the lottery or some other selfish desire. Then "give us this day our daily bread" Here we are asking for the basic necessities of life. No luxuries here we are simply asking for the basics to allow us to live. Then "Forgive us our trespasses" now we are asking for forgiveness for any wrong we may have accidentally committed while reminding ourselves that we should also be forgiving to others. These are all the things that are appropriate in a Prayer. First and foremost we ask that Gods will take place recognizing that its only Gods Kingdom that can cure this Earth of the badness. Second we ask for the necessities of life of help with things so that we can continue our worship of God in the way he instructs. Lastly we ask for forgiveness. Prayers that ask for wealth or any other selfish desire will not be answered. Prayers that are designed to just mock God or test him in a mocking or disrespectful way will not be answered. Prayers spoken by people not practicing his will will not be answered unless it is out of a genuine desire to get to know his will. So this essentially means that theres a whole bunch of people saying a whole bunch of prayers about a whole bunch of different things that are simply never heard.

Even if a prayer is heard it doesnt mean that the answer you get is the one you want. Sometimes if you are going through a difficult time. Rather than remove the trial God will simply give you the power to endure it. And sometimes too prayer simply works through a placebo effect. Prayer in itself is not proof of God or proof of faith.

Anyway I dont wish to go on. The prayer part was a sidetrack explanation that had been overdue. Its also a very condensed version of our view. Im trying to keep things brief.
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thedatabug
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Re: HELLO RELIGIOUS PEOPLE! I have an honest question for you.

Post#8 » Mon Nov 15, 2010 5:05 pm

being an eclectic Pagan


Oooh do you get to wear white dresses and do things with virgins?
I want to be a Goth so I can hang out with girls in corsets


three5andeight
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Re: HELLO RELIGIOUS PEOPLE! I have an honest question for you.

Post#9 » Mon Nov 15, 2010 5:58 pm

DB! Your explanation of prayer was so good. I haven't watched the vids yet, (typing a quick [ok, so this didn't end up being quick] post in here does NOT mean that I have time to sit and watch a video! I am a busy housewife/mom with two kids two and under, in case you didn't know). I totally agree with you about prayer and it is sooooo often misunderstood. I can pray all I want to win the Publisher's Clearing House, but just because I ask for it doesn't mean it's going to happen. And just because it doesn't happen doesn't mean that my prayers "aren't answered" or that my faith is ruined. It clearly says in the bible that you shouldn't say repetitive prayers, it should be heartfelt, more like you're talking to God, not reciting bible verses. I don't understand why some religions completely go against things that are clearly stated in the bible, but whatever, that's a different story. I have had prayers "answered" and I've had some that haven't been answered yet or I got answers that I didn't want, but that's what was meant for me. If you guys don't mind, I can share a couple experiences I've had with prayer, unless that's completely off topic, but whatever, I'll do it anyway. :P

This one is about a time where I had a CLEAR voice in my head answering my prayer. You can decide if it was coincidence or subconscious or whatever, but you can't prove it just as much as I can't prove that it was God. Anyway, when I had my second son, he was a horrible eater and sleeper. I was trying to breastfeed and he would eat a little, but he actually stopped gaining weight at all for about three months. He rarely slept, and rarely longer than two hours at a time. Around the time he was 6 months old, I finally thought, well it's gotta be something besides just me trying to figure out how to breastfeed right. No weight gain is BAD. And the doctors couldn't figure it out either. Anyway, one night I was praying about it, basically just asking for help that I'd be able to figure out what was going on. And clear as a bell in my head I knew what was wrong. He had a casein allergy and breast milk has trace amounts of casein (a milk protein) in it. We switched him to a formula that doesn't have that proteins, and within two days he was a new baby. He slept overnight, he started gaining weight, he was even happier. I know you'll come up with all kinds of excuses for how I knew that, or that I would've figured it out eventually, but your coincidence is my answered prayer and there isn't really a good way to argue that.

Normally when I pray, I ask for opportunities to serve others. This might be something I'd think to seek out, or something random that would just happen. A few weeks ago, I was having a crazy dream about a friend who was going through a really rough time. He is actually barely a friend, I rarely talk to him but I know him and a tiny bit about what he was going through, but I hadn't talked to him for at least 6 months or so and I actually thought things were much better with him. Bottom line is I hadn't been thinking of him, talking to him or hearing anything about him to prompt some dream about him. In this dream, I told him something about like needing to forgive yourself and let others love you. When I woke up from it, my very first thought was "I need to tell him that NOW!" And then I thought, that's insane. I don't talk to him, I don't want to offend him, I don't know what's going on with him right now, I'd make him mad if I told him that, like I'd be meddling, etc. So I tried to go about my morning. But I got like physically shaky about it and that voice in my head wouldn't stop saying "YOU NEED TO TEXT HIM THAT NOW!!" So I sat down and wrote out a text about how I had this crazy dream about him, and I didn't want to offend him or have him think I was crazy. And if I was totally off base then to just ignore my text, but I really felt like I needed to tell him that even when you think you've been forgiven by those you've wronged and by God, that maybe the most important part is to forgive yourself and to let those around you love you. And I shakily pressed the send button and nearly had a heart attack that I had done something so ridiculous from a dream. Well, not even five minutes later he responded and said holy crap, I so needed to hear that right now. He was at one of the lowest points he'd been at and he was struggling with exactly the things that I had mentioned. He was shutting out his fiancee because he felt like he didn't deserve to be loved or forgiven and he couldn't forgive himself. It was an amazing testimony-affirming experience for me and for him. It was just so random, especially because we're barely friends and don't really talk, that it would come from me like that. If I hadn't paid attention to that voice (that I would call the Holy Ghost) he might never had had that break through that he needed to get through his problems.

You say there's all this science that disproves everything I believe, but honestly, if you take a really close look at it, it doesn't at all. Every single point you make has a counter point and it's just exhausting to argue about it all the time. My beliefs are based on facts that I've researched, scripture I've read, feelings I've had, experiences I've been blessed with. I'm not brainwashed, I don't believe every single thing I've been told, I'm not a follower and I don't think that I'm ignoring the truth or reality by believing what I do. I'm open to your beliefs and others beliefs, but even learning about all of that, I still come back to what I already know. Not because I'm lazy or because I'm ignoring the truth but because I take in the points, I research them, etc. and I still come back to knowing that what I believe is true. There may be PEOPLE who have changed or ruined or used Mormon or any other religious doctrines to their gain, twisted them, etc. but those are people, not the gospel. There's a huge difference. These people have no bearing on what I know to be true, even prophets are just people in the end and they can make mistakes just like "normal" people can.

I can't think of anything powerful to end this ridiculously long post. But I can just say that watching a documentary about one guy's journey to non-belief is not going to shake in the least what I know from my experiences and research, and if it can, what does that say about me? That I'm easily influenced? Quick to drop my beliefs? I don't think that's actually a good thing it all. It seems like it would actually show weakness, not intelligence or strength.


edit: i just noticed that I posted this as 3:58 pm! how cool is that??

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Abe
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Re: HELLO RELIGIOUS PEOPLE! I have an honest question for you.

Post#10 » Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:43 pm

HEY! Blue pill junkies! Stop dosing in here! I'll call the police! :D

No, but seriously, I respect everyone's choice to believe whatever they want. You will receive no argument from me. What I'm interested in is the person who is willing to challenge their beliefs. I'm eager to read the comments of a theist after having watched all 2.5 hours of video. If that theist isn't you, don't worry about it. Hopefully one will come along. 8)
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Evilsilver
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Re: HELLO RELIGIOUS PEOPLE! I have an honest question for you.

Post#11 » Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:34 pm

before i watch this i have to ask (and sorry because i have been drinking tonight in order to try to fall asleep so if it has been gone over in some of the more long winded posts i'm sorry...)

What exactly is it. is it a challenge of beliefs in the form of bringing up all of the inconsistencies in the bible?
or is it closer to just the other side of the argument of religion? (i really don't know how to explain what i am asking better than that. devil's advocate is way different then pointing out things that don't make sense.)

i only ask because it is so long, if it is only all about the things in the bible that don't make sense and other things along those lines, i am gonna have to skip it because i have heard/said/pointed out probably everything in it anyways. but if it is going to give me interesting points for the argument against it, then i will watch it to see what they have come up with.
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Re: HELLO RELIGIOUS PEOPLE! I have an honest question for you.

Post#12 » Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:47 pm

The first video is an awkward 2 min overview that explains what the series is about.
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Shalmainia
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Re: HELLO RELIGIOUS PEOPLE! I have an honest question for you.

Post#13 » Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:22 am

thedatabug wrote:
being an eclectic Pagan


Oooh do you get to wear white dresses and do things with virgins?


If I wanted to, yeah. LOL. Except my fiancé would probably kill me.
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macxtc
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Re: HELLO RELIGIOUS PEOPLE! I have an honest question for you.

Post#14 » Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:47 am

I'll take a red with a shot of jack (straight up)...

then go to sleep peacefully and wake up in a world gone to hell...

it just couldn't get any worse... or could it?
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thedatabug
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Re: HELLO RELIGIOUS PEOPLE! I have an honest question for you.

Post#15 » Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:16 am

Ill see if I get more time but 2.5 hours is a lot of time to try and find. I did feel I had watched the most significant parts of the film namely all the things that led to his de-conversion. I would have thought that if there was something there that would stumble my faith it would be in that first half.

Plus the guy creeps me out. I really dont like his "sympathetic" tone.
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