Ancient Aliens (History Channel Show)

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Xerxys
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Re: Ancient Aliens (History Channel Show)

Post#46 » Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:54 pm

Xerxys wrote: ... FTL is impossible. We don't think it, we know it. ...
Well, this is me swallowing my words.

Roll over Einstein: Law of physics challenged
By FRANK JORDANS and SETH BORENSTEIN
Associated Press



GENEVA (AP) -- One of the very pillars of physics and Einstein's theory of relativity - that nothing can go faster than the speed of light - was rocked Thursday by new findings from one of the world's foremost laboratories.

European researchers said they clocked an oddball type of subatomic particle called a neutrino going faster than the 186,282 miles per second that has long been considered the cosmic speed limit.

The claim was met with skepticism, with one outside physicist calling it the equivalent of saying you have a flying carpet. In fact, the researchers themselves are not ready to proclaim a discovery and are asking other physicists to independently try to verify their findings.

"The feeling that most people have is this can't be right, this can't be real," said James Gillies, a spokesman for the European Organization for Nuclear Research, or CERN, which provided the particle accelerator that sent neutrinos on their breakneck 454-mile trip underground from Geneva to Italy.

Going faster than light is something that is just not supposed to happen according to Einstein's 1905 special theory of relativity - the one made famous by the equation E equals mc2. But no one is rushing out to rewrite the science books just yet.

It is "a revolutionary discovery if confirmed," said Indiana University theoretical physicist Alan Kostelecky, who has worked on this concept for a quarter of a century.

Stephen Parke, who is head theoretician at the Fermilab near Chicago and was not part of the research, said: "It's a shock. It's going to cause us problems, no doubt about that - if it's true."

Even if these results are confirmed, they won't change at all the way we live or the way the world works. After all, these particles have presumably been speed demons for billions of years. But the finding will fundamentally alter our understanding of how the universe operates, physicists said.

Einstein's special relativity theory, which says that energy equals mass times the speed of light squared, underlies "pretty much everything in modern physics," said John Ellis, a theoretical physicist at CERN who was not involved in the experiment. "It has worked perfectly up until now."

France's National Institute for Nuclear and Particle Physics Research collaborated with Italy's Gran Sasso National Laboratory on the experiment at CERN.

CERN reported that a neutrino beam fired from a particle accelerator near Geneva to a lab 454 miles (730 kilometers) away in Italy traveled 60 nanoseconds faster than the speed of light. Scientists calculated the margin of error at just 10 nanoseconds. (A nanosecond is one-billionth of a second.)

Given the enormous implications of the find, the researchers spent months checking and rechecking their results to make sure there were no flaws in the experiment.

A team at Fermilab had similar faster-than-light results in 2007, but a large margin of error undercut its scientific significance.

If anything is going to throw a cosmic twist into Einstein's theories, it's not surprising that it's the strange particles known as neutrinos. These are odd slivers of an atom that have confounded physicists for about 80 years.

The neutrino has almost no mass, comes in three different "flavors," may have its own antiparticle and has been seen shifting from one flavor to another while shooting out from our sun, said physicist Phillip Schewe, communications director at the Joint Quantum Institute in Maryland.

Columbia University physicist Brian Greene, author of the book "Fabric of the Cosmos," said neutrinos theoretically can travel at different speeds depending on how much energy they have. And some mysterious particles whose existence is still only theorized could be similarly speedy, he said.

Fermilab team spokeswoman Jenny Thomas, a physics professor at the University College of London, said there must be a "more mundane explanation" for the European findings. She said Fermilab's experience showed how hard it is to measure accurately the distance, time and angles required for such a claim.

Nevertheless, Fermilab, which shoots neutrinos from Chicago to Minnesota, has already begun working to try to verify or knock down the new findings.

And that's exactly what the team in Geneva wants.

Gillies told The Associated Press that the readings have so astounded researchers that "they are inviting the broader physics community to look at what they've done and really scrutinize it in great detail, and ideally for someone elsewhere in the world to repeat the measurements."

Only two labs elsewhere in the world can try to replicate the work: Fermilab and a Japanese installation that has been slowed by the tsunami and earthquake. And Fermilab's measuring systems aren't nearly as precise as the Europeans' and won't be upgraded for a while, said Fermilab scientist Rob Plunkett.

Drew Baden, chairman of the physics department at the University of Maryland, said it is far more likely that the CERN findings are the result of measurement errors or some kind of fluke. Tracking neutrinos is very difficult, he said.

"This is ridiculous what they're putting out," Baden said. "Until this is verified by another group, it's flying carpets. It's cool, but ..."

So if the neutrinos are pulling this fast one on Einstein, how can it happen?

Parke said there could be a cosmic shortcut through another dimension - physics theory is full of unseen dimensions - that allows the neutrinos to beat the speed of light.

Indiana's Kostelecky theorizes that there are situations when the background is different in the universe, not perfectly symmetrical as Einstein says. Those changes in background may alter both the speed of light and the speed of neutrinos.

But that doesn't mean Einstein's theory is ready for the trash heap, he said.

"I don't think you're going to ever kill Einstein's theory. You can't. It works," Kostelecky said. There are just times when an additional explanation is needed, he said.

If the European findings are correct, "this would change the idea of how the universe is put together," Columbia's Greene said. But he added: "I would bet just about everything I hold dear that this won't hold up to scrutiny."


Maybe, swallowing my words. Time will tell.
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Re: Ancient Aliens (History Channel Show)

Post#47 » Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:33 am

i just pm'd you that .. because i thought you never gonna answer to what i wrote here again anyways .. ;)

as i said .. our physical laws are just a construct .. a try to explain how things work .... but physics is all based on axioms (dunno if that's the right term in english .. anyways) ... all the physcal axioms .. can't be proven RIGHT .. so we just assume that they are correct simply because noone has been able to prove so far that they aren't correct. And that's with everything in physics .. just because we think something is impossible .. doesn't mean it actually is. For all we know (as unlikely as it is) EVERYTHING we know about physics could be completely wrong ... Happens all the time that something we believed was right for centuries (or more .. or less) is proven wrong, and we have to start over and come up with some new axioms which are "correct" until the next one comes and proves them wrong.

well i know (or i think to know) that you don't have studied anything related to physics .. that's why i didn't agree with what you said from the start.

i mean .. i got my degrees in a, on most parts, physics-based area ... and i say myself that i know almost nothing of physics (the stuff i learned before University about physics is "less than nothing" ;) ). Now i know enough to work .. but that's like a teeeeeeeeeny tiny wee little bit ;)

It's not proven yet that those Neutrinos were in fact faster than light .. (experiment has to be recreated with the same results by someone else first) but there's no way you can tell if something is really impossible or not .. it's all a big game of guessing ... that's one of the first things we learned ... Prof came in and said: "Just assume everything is possible, maybe we haven't discovered it yet, but assume everything is possible. If you don't .. you're in the wrong course." ;)

Just take the silly (but effective) example of the Bumblebee. Considering everything we know about aerodynamics it's not possible that a Bumblebee actually can fly. Good thing is .. the Bumblebee doesn't know that .. ;)

so .. have we been visited by ETs in the past?
probably not .... but it's not impossible
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Re: Ancient Aliens (History Channel Show)

Post#48 » Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:08 am

These results are also not very finite in their discovery. It could mean a lot of things ... it could mean that we simply didn't know that we were measuring only one type (spectrum?) of light and other types can move faster, leaving relativity intact. It could mean that we hadn't yet discovered max velocity, and maybe we still haven't. It could also mean that relativity was a good assumption to go by and we now need another way to look at things, same way Newtonian laws were good examples but wrong in the long run. Einsteins law of relativity, as I understand it, is only useful when you have to measure high extremes like size, accuracy, energy and/or great distances.

With all that said, theoretical physics has interacted practically maybe, what ... three times in history? The only use I can see for having neutrinos move faster than light would be sending packet data across distances. Scale this up to human size and I don't see how it can be used to transport anything larger than a sub-atomic particle from points A to B.

Skell, can you give me a list of things that theoretical physics has made possible. I can only think of two, Airplanes and wireless communication.

Either way I'm excited to hear the results of the experiment's duplication.
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Re: Ancient Aliens (History Channel Show)

Post#49 » Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:42 pm

well...

imo only the simple things started as "non-theoretical" physics (beginnings of Mechanics ... for example: Newtons 3 axioms ... he saw something, observed it, made an assumption, tried to do do a mathematical approxiation .. then someone else replicated it and came to the same conclusion. And voila ... you got yourself a physical law... which you can't really proof. but the fact that noone can proof the opposite either (so far) it's regarded as a law. So .. everything someone can't comprehend because they can do some little experiment in their shed and go "Heureka" .. theoretical physics ... most of the things we use everyday wouldn't exist if someone didn't have a theorie about something at some point. Not just planes and wireless communication. Sure .. some stuff got discovered "by accident" others because someone was looking for something that doesn't exist yet. But how many things are based on theoretical physics (or better was based on some theoretical physics when it was "invented") .... and many many many times some very smart physics dudes came up with a law. The people then assumed that was true for sometimes centuries until someone found a way to disprove it. Sure maybe Einstein was right ... maybe he's just inacurate .. maybe he's completely wrong. fact is, that our species is just assuming a whole bunch of stuff ... physical laws are a bit like religion ;) as long as you don't have hard evidence against it ... people believe in it ;) (me too ... physics of course .. not god .. how silly would that be). Wow .. if anoyne understands w what i'm trying to say congrats (i'm having a hard time .. lol).

well ... sending particles over a couple hundred k distance and "catch" them again is not so theoretical .. that's already in the "applied" area ... but now telling why and how those particles moved (assuming that it isn't some error ... which is very possible that it was ... but still) faster than light or if not where did those nanoseconds go. that's theoretical physics "the sending and detecting"-part not really. Problem is .. i think recreating that somewhere else will take years. just because of the whole machinery that was involved. You have to first build another lab which can recreate it. Don't hold your breath for any proof or otherwise. Maybe someone still stumbles upon an error they made. I think they searched pretty good though because i don't think they were expecting something happen like that at all. but of course knowing what all that stuff exactly means and how it really happened now that's probably all wild theories .. (probably they're still just there with the jaw dropped looking for errors rather than making any assumptions)

long story short physics is just an approximation, a try to explain stuff in a simple way that is so comples that imo nobody will ever fully understand it ... basically we just can't tell how accurate our knowledge really is. is a pm^3 of steel still steel? .. should be shouldn't it? ... does it still have the same caracteristics?

we're just scratching the surface :)
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Re: Ancient Aliens (History Channel Show)

Post#50 » Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:16 pm

skeletor wrote:Just take the silly (but effective) example of the Bumblebee. Considering everything we know about aerodynamics it's not possible that a Bumblebee actually can fly. Good thing is .. the Bumblebee doesn't know that .. ;) ...

Also, this might be true ... in 1945. They simply did not have the same Aerodynamic laws that we have today to measure how the wings of the bumble-bee move much faster than they had initially anticipated and stall even more faster. But because of this puzzling bee we were able to invent the Harrier Jet. You know, the one that hovers and doesn't need a run-way!

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So, until they actually duplicate the experiment, I'll contend that FTL, when possible for sub-atomic particles, is simply impossible for anything larger. Skell, read the article below. It makes more sense than moving sub-atomic particles a couple of nano-seconds faster. Anything larger than that simply cannot exceed max velocity.

19/07/2011 HKUST Professors Prove Single Photons Do Not Exceed the Speed of Light

A group of physicists at the Hong Kong University of Science and Technology (HKUST) led by Prof Shengwang Du reported the direct observation of optical precursor of a single photon and proved that single photons cannot travel faster than the speed of light in vacuum. HKUST's study reaffirms Einstein's theory that nothing travels faster than light and closes a decade-long debate about the speed of a single photon.

Prof Shengwang Du, Assistant Professor in HKUST's Department of Physics, and his research team have published their study in Physical Review Letters recently. Co-authors include three postgraduate students Shanchao Zhang, Jiefei Chen and Chang Liu, Chair Professors Michael M T Loy and George K L Wong. This is the fifth time in the last two years that Prof Du's team published their optics research in Physical Review Letters, one of the most prestigious scientific journals in physics, and the second time their papers were selected as editors' suggestion for reading. This research was also highlighted as a Physics Synopsis by American Physical Society with a title "Single photons obey the speed limits."

Prof Du's study demonstrates that a single photon, the fundamental quanta of light, also obeys the traffic law of the universe just like classical EM waves. Einstein claimed that the speed of light was the traffic law of the universe or in simple language, nothing can travel faster than light. HKUST's team is the first to experimentally show that optical precursors exist at the single-photon level, and that they are the fastest part of the single-photon wave packet even in a so called 'superluminal' medium.

"The results add to our understanding of how a single photon moves. They also confirm the upper bound on how fast information travels with light," said Prof Du. "By showing that single photons cannot travel faster than the speed of light, our results bring a closure to the debate on the true speed of information carried by a single photon. Our findings will also likely have potential applications by giving scientists a better picture on the transmission of quantum information."

HKUST President Tony F Chan said, "We are most delighted that Prof Shengwang Du and his research group have confirmed a key feature of a fundamental law of physics, which also has important implications for communication technology. It epitomizes the mission of our university - to both produce fundamental knowledge and technological impact. As a research university with a focus on science and technology, HKUST will continue to push the limits of frontier knowledge by fostering basic as well as applied research, which is best demonstrated by this breakthrough discovery."

Discovery of superluminal propagation of optical pulses in some specific medium 10 years ago has evoked the world's dream of time travel, but later scientists realized that it is only a visual effect where the superluminal 'group' velocity of many photons could not be used for transmitting any real information. Then people set their hope on single photons because in the strange quantum world nothing seems impossible -- a single photon may be possible to travel faster than the speed limit in the classical world. Because of lack of experimental evidence of single photon velocity, this is also an open debate among physicists. To tackle the problem, Prof Du's team measured the ultimate speed of a single photon with controllable waveforms. The study, which showed that single photons also obey the speed limit c, confirms Einstein's causality; that is, an effect cannot occur before its cause.

HKUST's team used a demonstration which required not only producing single photons, but separating the optical precursor, which is the wave-like propagation at the front of an optical pulse, from the rest of the photon wave packet. To do so, Prof Du's team generated a pair of photons, and then passed one of them through a group of laser-cooled rubidium atoms with an effect called electromagnetically induced transparency (EIT). For the first time, they successfully observed optical precursors of a single photon.

The team found that, as the fastest part of a single photon, the precursor wave front always travels at the speed of light in vacuum. The main wave packet of the single photon travels no faster than the speed of light in vacuum in any dispersive medium, and can be delayed up to 500 nanoseconds in a slow light medium. Even in a superluminal medium where the group velocity (of an optical pulse peak) is faster than the speed of light in vacuum, the main part of the single photon has no possibility to travel faster than its precursor.

Prof Shengwang Du joined HKUST's Department of Physics as an Assistant Professor in 2008. He obtained BS in Electrical Engineering from Nanjing University, MS in Physics from Peking University, MS in Electrical Engineering and PhD in Physics from the University of Colorado at Boulder. He had been a Postdoctoral Scholar at Stanford University before joining HKUST.

You still never gave me any examples of theoretical physics turned modern in use today.
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Re: Ancient Aliens (History Channel Show)

Post#51 » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:53 pm

copy and pasting articles is alright .. but haven't you noticed ..this has been a philosophical discussion all along .. so what if that dude who wrote the article is just wrong ... we don't know that (he's probably right .. you don't even notice that i'm more or less agreing the whole time with you) but dude ... you have simply no clue (me neither) ..

look ... pretty mondane applications were based on theoretical phisycs at some point of time (what now is experimental was theoretical a couple decades ago ... not only wireless com is based on that .. com through a wire too .. was at some point just a crazy theorie .. what concrete examples do you want .. so you tell me something that doesn't Newton's 3 axioms were belong also in the field of theoretical physics (or belonged to back then) now .. tell me some machine that wasn't made with those 3 axioms? you're completely missing the point of the whole discussion if you just want some examples. Radio, TV, Toaster, Vibrator ... pff .. you name it. What we consider theoretical physics now is maybe Experimental physics tomorrow.

the bumblebee example was just a methaphor (what then/now is impossible doesn't mean that it's impossible in a couple hundred years or whatever) we discover new things all the time (maybe rediscover). So you can't just say something isn't like this or like that .. because you don't know.
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Re: Ancient Aliens (History Channel Show)

Post#52 » Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:49 pm

I wasn't arguing. I was asking for more examples of practical applications because I couldn't think of any others myself.
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Re: Ancient Aliens (History Channel Show)

Post#53 » Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:39 am

i wasn't saying that you are arguing :) .. (we're having an imo interesting discussion) i just think you're going a bit in the wrong direction (trying to make it a physics discussion what is more a philosophycal one) .. we both probably will never see "who was right"

but what still bugs me a bit ;) .. you never answered how you think the egyptians, sumerians, Inca, Nazca etc built their ginormous Buildings?? ... how did they transport the stones over hundreds of miles ... in short how did the logistics work?

well .. why was it imo not necessary to give examples? ... well basically almost everything is based soemwhere on some laws which have been theoretical physics at some point. The time where you can invent something whitout relying on physics. So .. point with your finger at something man made and it's almost certanly based on some theorie that was considered theoretical physics ... it has not even to be the "apparatus" itself .. but it could also very well be the machine you need to build something .. or even the materials used in what you build. Because a lot of times you have to come up with new materials first.

anything is possible ;)
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Re: Ancient Aliens (History Channel Show)

Post#54 » Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:24 am

Xerxys wrote:
Xerxys wrote: ... FTL is impossible. We don't think it, we know it. ...
Well, this is me swallowing my words.

Roll over Einstein: Law of physics challenged
By FRANK JORDANS and SETH BORENSTEIN
Associated Press



GENEVA (AP) -- One of the very pillars of physics and Einstein's theory of relativity - that nothing can go faster than the speed of light - was rocked Thursday by new findings from one of the world's foremost laboratories.

European researchers said they clocked an oddball type of subatomic particle called a neutrino going faster than the 186,282 miles per second that has long been considered the cosmic speed limit.

The claim was met with skepticism, with one outside physicist calling it the equivalent of saying you have a flying carpet. In fact, the researchers themselves are not ready to proclaim a discovery and are asking other physicists to independently try to verify their findings.

"The feeling that most people have is this can't be right, this can't be real," said James Gillies, a spokesman for the European Organization for Nuclear Research, or CERN, which provided the particle accelerator that sent neutrinos on their breakneck 454-mile trip underground from Geneva to Italy.

Going faster than light is something that is just not supposed to happen according to Einstein's 1905 special theory of relativity - the one made famous by the equation E equals mc2. But no one is rushing out to rewrite the science books just yet.

It is "a revolutionary discovery if confirmed," said Indiana University theoretical physicist Alan Kostelecky, who has worked on this concept for a quarter of a century.

Stephen Parke, who is head theoretician at the Fermilab near Chicago and was not part of the research, said: "It's a shock. It's going to cause us problems, no doubt about that - if it's true."

Even if these results are confirmed, they won't change at all the way we live or the way the world works. After all, these particles have presumably been speed demons for billions of years. But the finding will fundamentally alter our understanding of how the universe operates, physicists said.

Einstein's special relativity theory, which says that energy equals mass times the speed of light squared, underlies "pretty much everything in modern physics," said John Ellis, a theoretical physicist at CERN who was not involved in the experiment. "It has worked perfectly up until now."

France's National Institute for Nuclear and Particle Physics Research collaborated with Italy's Gran Sasso National Laboratory on the experiment at CERN.

CERN reported that a neutrino beam fired from a particle accelerator near Geneva to a lab 454 miles (730 kilometers) away in Italy traveled 60 nanoseconds faster than the speed of light. Scientists calculated the margin of error at just 10 nanoseconds. (A nanosecond is one-billionth of a second.)

Given the enormous implications of the find, the researchers spent months checking and rechecking their results to make sure there were no flaws in the experiment.

A team at Fermilab had similar faster-than-light results in 2007, but a large margin of error undercut its scientific significance.

If anything is going to throw a cosmic twist into Einstein's theories, it's not surprising that it's the strange particles known as neutrinos. These are odd slivers of an atom that have confounded physicists for about 80 years.

The neutrino has almost no mass, comes in three different "flavors," may have its own antiparticle and has been seen shifting from one flavor to another while shooting out from our sun, said physicist Phillip Schewe, communications director at the Joint Quantum Institute in Maryland.

Columbia University physicist Brian Greene, author of the book "Fabric of the Cosmos," said neutrinos theoretically can travel at different speeds depending on how much energy they have. And some mysterious particles whose existence is still only theorized could be similarly speedy, he said.

Fermilab team spokeswoman Jenny Thomas, a physics professor at the University College of London, said there must be a "more mundane explanation" for the European findings. She said Fermilab's experience showed how hard it is to measure accurately the distance, time and angles required for such a claim.

Nevertheless, Fermilab, which shoots neutrinos from Chicago to Minnesota, has already begun working to try to verify or knock down the new findings.

And that's exactly what the team in Geneva wants.

Gillies told The Associated Press that the readings have so astounded researchers that "they are inviting the broader physics community to look at what they've done and really scrutinize it in great detail, and ideally for someone elsewhere in the world to repeat the measurements."

Only two labs elsewhere in the world can try to replicate the work: Fermilab and a Japanese installation that has been slowed by the tsunami and earthquake. And Fermilab's measuring systems aren't nearly as precise as the Europeans' and won't be upgraded for a while, said Fermilab scientist Rob Plunkett.

Drew Baden, chairman of the physics department at the University of Maryland, said it is far more likely that the CERN findings are the result of measurement errors or some kind of fluke. Tracking neutrinos is very difficult, he said.

"This is ridiculous what they're putting out," Baden said. "Until this is verified by another group, it's flying carpets. It's cool, but ..."

So if the neutrinos are pulling this fast one on Einstein, how can it happen?

Parke said there could be a cosmic shortcut through another dimension - physics theory is full of unseen dimensions - that allows the neutrinos to beat the speed of light.

Indiana's Kostelecky theorizes that there are situations when the background is different in the universe, not perfectly symmetrical as Einstein says. Those changes in background may alter both the speed of light and the speed of neutrinos.

But that doesn't mean Einstein's theory is ready for the trash heap, he said.

"I don't think you're going to ever kill Einstein's theory. You can't. It works," Kostelecky said. There are just times when an additional explanation is needed, he said.

If the European findings are correct, "this would change the idea of how the universe is put together," Columbia's Greene said. But he added: "I would bet just about everything I hold dear that this won't hold up to scrutiny."


Maybe, swallowing my words. Time will tell.

Is there any truth about these stories? There is still no evidence of aliens

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Re: Ancient Aliens (History Channel Show)

Post#55 » Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:58 pm

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